No success so far, any suggestions? - General Discussions on IAYH

Paul

Hello IAYH, I just seek some simple advice today. I've tried to make my subject enter a 'trance state' by using the arm lock suggestion/induction. I start off with a simple pre-talk in which I clarified some misconceptions of hypnosis followed by the arm lock suggestion/induction. No matter how much I've tried on my family and friends so far I can't get hypnosis to 'work'. Any suggestion for this beginner as to what he's doing wrong?

aceofmagic · Post edited by aceofmagic at 2011-12-08 16:58:16

Hey Paul! Great to hear back from you so quick!

The pre-talk is an imposition that hypnotists began using as a way of eliminating any resistance through the client's potentially "false" expectations so they essentially get out of their own way. So they basically sit in the chair, shut up and listen without a fight lol But again that's not really respecting the person's beliefs. Sure, if someone wants to believe that hypnosis is complete nonsense, they can think that AS they go ahead and change right in front of me. : )

Is the pre-talk necessary? Nope. Think about things in terms of their function or purpose. What's the function of a pre-talk? What does it do? It demystifies hypnosis as being something other than what some people may think. . .. including hypnotists strangely enough. I wish I could do a "pre-talk" with more hypnotists to be honest because even THEY don't have it right sometimes. The point is to create an atmosphere where someone feels safe and willing to follow what you suggest for their benefit. That's all. It's not necessary and Milton Erickson was very big on not using pre-talks as they've been traditionally used or describing what hypnosis is as he deconstructs the potentiation of the number of foci from many down to one as your unconscious explores the mechanisms of discovery. . . now. . . But definitely not necessary.

My initial comments have imagery strewn in so you slip into trance while reading. Whether that be light, medium or deep. . . these are all concepts. I don't personally believe in depth of trance because people are literally going anywhere. They're simply listening and responding and creating imagery for themselves. To be honest? It's simply using the nervous system to our advantage. The body creates a reaction to our thoughts. The somato-sensory cortex works to the goal of sensory perception. We can accurately say that we use this mechanism in order to create experiences through language that affect people at a very core level. But I didn't have to do a pretalk with you did I? Nope, I simply laid it all out in front of you so you can choose to pick up certain aspects of what you found interesting and ran away with it in your mind. Your imagination unfolds as you consider what lies before you. Do you think about controlling others or think about creating an experience for someone to their benefit? With those two options spread out in front of you, you can begin to decide which one jumps out at you. You can stretch the future a bit and see what's going to come tumbling down the rabbit hole if you choose this over that. Pull "this" in. . . push "that" out ahead of you. In fact put all "that" to the side and think about how easy it's going to be to place ideas squarely inside someone's mind. How about being able to do it in such a way where their mind falls open to you. You can being to reorganize the way they think in a very specific way. Pull that in and see the possibilities. As soon as you begin to practice exuberantly, all this and more become as simple as picking an apple of a tree and tasting the sweet nectar of success!

"would one described above by using their doubts against them then creating a wonderful scene work"

I'm not so much using their doubts against them . . .quite the opposite. I'm using their doubts to flow WITH them. I'm not paddling upstream! That's WAY too much work and it makes me exhausted for little result. Screw that! I'm looking at the way the river of their mind thinks. I see the rapids and flow of thought and basically jump in and paddle WITH the current. What happens? You go SPEEDING down the river with ferocious speed!! You get to your goal a lot faster that way.

So people have said to me, "I believe hypnosis will solve all my problems" This is a case where I do NOT join them. I may ask some penetrating questions to expand their thoughts about this. Why? Because that will get in their way if they run into problems. Instead of trying to figure it out themselves or think a bit, they'll run back to a hypnotist for the answers. This isn't teaching them to be thoughtful individuals. It teaches them to become dependent. NOT what we want at all. We want to teach them how to respond differently to things. But that's for later on down the road.

For now, I would agree with whatever they think about hypnosis. Because they're right. If you try and make someone wrong or try to "correct" them, then you'll get it wrong yourself. Make them right. Then go with it. Be creative. "This arm levitation is stupid!" --- Ok. Under what conditions do you think you'll go into a trance nicely and easily? --- "I don't know." - - - Then how do you know you're not in a trance now? - -- "I just know" - - - Absolutely you do. But you also don't know what conditions trance is possible for you. It could be all of them! In fact, if you WERE going to go into a trance, what would be the first thing you'd notice?

Again all that is useful but not necessary. Simply creating that vivid description will create trance. Remember, you can have them re-enter that trance state after they've gotten out of it by re-evoking the descriptions you engaged them in. For example, if I was talking to you and wanted to put you into trance for a second time after you've come out of the first trance, I would talk about just how long it takes for a drop of dew to hit the ground from the top of a pine tree in the morning just as the sun begins to shine behind the mountain tops. And remember that we're much bigger than a drop of dew. What if we were the size of an ant riding the drop of dew like a wave from the top of the tree to the bottom while that sweet pine scent freshens the air? It would seem to take forever to hit the ground. You'd be enjoying the ride for what would seem like hours. Just riding the wave. Feeling that drift that occurs. You know that drift that occurs inside. Simply bobbing and weaving through the branches and pine needles while watching the ground jumping at us as we get closer and closer. Hearing the wind whisp through our ears and spiraling downward in a frenzy of adrenaline and excitement that is literally BURSTING at the seams!!

And because I'm talking about trees again, that response will be elicited again. Now all I have to do is talk about how Bob Ross (famous painter) would take such great care in painting his trees. Pine trees, maple trees, oak trees. . . all sorts. Think about how many different trees there are! Hmmm. . . .

So we're really just using what the person thinks about hypnosis and putting that aside and just getting down to the work. Pre-talk then induction? Wait, what about induction then pre-talk? But then again we also have suggestibility tests! What if I test them, then induce them just before a pre-talk?

Do you see the madness? It's all chaotic noise in the background. Get to the "doing" and just induce the damn trance and get it over with lmao! No need to overcomplicate it. There are many many ways of inducing trance and the above paragraph about ants and dew drops brings time distortion into the mix. So for now, work on vivid imagery and get AWESOME at that. You see the level of effort I'm putting into these paragraphs. You gotta do the same. I did the same thing you're doing. I worked hard, practiced everyday and stuck with it. So now if I want to induce trance, I can do it anyway I wish. Covertly, conversationally or traditionally. Doesn't matter to me.

What do you think?

aceofmagic

Hey there Paul! Welcome to the forums! It's a really great place and full of positive intentioned people. Definitely will enjoy some of the feedback you'll receive. I noticed a couple of things in your question that may be getting in the way of you really throwing sparks off the guardrails with your hypnosis!

"I've tried to make my subject enter a 'trance state'"

This is a common way of expressing this situation. Realize however, that as hypnotists we don't make people do things. We force them, trick them or twist their arm in order to get the response we're looking for unless resistance is the goal. What we do as hypnotists, is utilize the communication coming from someone and our own communications in order to create a CONTEXT in which it's very difficult for someone to say "no" to us. Whether it be openly or simply not agreeing with what we said. If they are not with us, then there's an uneeded obstacle. Likewise, we need to be with THEM as well. We need to gain that rapport by listening and feeding back to them. We need to stay on their wave length. These are good guidelines to keep in mind as they separate the slick nonsense from the sparkling truth.

" I start off with a simple pre-talk in which I clarified some misconceptions of hypnosis followed by the arm lock suggestion/induction"

Notice that a lot of the "misconceptions" about hypnosis can be used to your advantage. "If you place embedded commands in sentences I'll have to close my eyes" o_O Alright. "When someone gets sleepy now. . . " And (-_-) happens. Using their beliefs could be very useful. "I don't believe in hypnosis. Only I can make myself go into a trance" ---- "Absolutely. In fact I learned a cool meditation that one can use to organize their thinking. Check it out. Close your eyes first. " And (-_-) happens again.

"Hypnosis is nonsense and doesn't work. I can't go into trance and am unable to meditate and visualize. Try your best. " ------ "Alright. In fact I know that you wouldn't want to gently close your eyes because you would never go for that. I can't tell you to take a deep breath in and let it out slowly. It wouldn't work if I describe the tingling sensations of your muscles softening and loosening so you can allow that comfort to slowly spread throughout your entire mind and body. Old thoughts can begin to relax and knots in your life and become untied in the most pleasant way possible. That wouldn't appeal to you just like closing your eyes so you can further try to resist me wouldn't work. In fact I bet I can make it so you can't close your eyes. It's getting harder to close your eyes now. Blinking is more difficult and keeping your eyes shut isn't even possible for you anymore. I'm totally controlling your mind without you even being aware of it." Simply using their beliefs to challenge the scope of the belief. Scope meaning how far it generalizes through counter examples. Very simple stuff. Requires thought though.

"No matter how much I've tried on my family and friends so far I can't get hypnosis to 'work'"

Well that's easy. You'll never get "hypnosis to work" because hypnosis isn't a working object. It's just an idea, concept and representations of experience associated with the word. We're not trying to get hypnosis to work. We're trying to make it easy for someone to respond to us. So if someone feels silly doing an armlock, don't make them do it. Do something else they'll feel more comfortable with. We're not in the business of humiliation or making people do things just because we've learned them as being true. We're there to accept the other person's reality and leveraging it. So perhaps ask them to close their eyes and as you describe walking in the green forest thick with trees and moisture in the air and how fresh the scent in the air smells and how soft the green moss is or how comfortable it is to enjoy the warm sunshine rubbing against your cheek in the most enjoyable of ways. Simply taking the time to slow down, take a pause and enjoy the simple pleasure of warmth. Closing one's eyes and feeling that warmth on your cheek spread to your neck and shoulders and allowing yourself the chance to relax. We all have stress and going away from all that for a bit can be so refreshing. Simply taking the stress, aggravation, anger, frustration and molding it into a ball that we can throw behind us. Letting all that go. Right there in front of you, is the opportunity to experience something novel and lively. Action packed with adventure and discovery. ----- You know that kinda thing. As they realize that their arm is still up in the air. . . . what does that tell you?

Hypnosis takes work to get good at. Learning how to describe things in vivid detail so that the experience it evokes is dripping with excitement and fullness. That's how you can become good at hypnosis and doing that while you're using arm catalepsy or arm locking will increase your success exponentially. There's a lot to it. But that's a start. Learn how to use adjectives and adverbs to create vivid experiences in the listener. Try describing a forest scene as real as possible, involving all the senses. Then describe an ocean scene so that the people can smell the cool salt water brushing off the crashing waves. Then describe a dreamy scene. In a very surreal way. Doing this will bust the doors of change open for you to fly right through and hit people with experiences that matter. Involve all the senses and be as specific as possible. That in itself is like a magic trick. Try out your scripts on some people once you're done and you've memorized them. And practice so you can spend the time watching the other person's reaction while you speak instead of trying to remember what to say next. This will REALLY help! Let me know how you get on with it!

Paul

Thanks so much aceofmagic! Something else I didn't make clear was that I was wondering if the pre-talk is necessary. And if so, would one described above by using their doubts against them then creating a wonderful scene work? After the pre-talk, induction?

Paul

Thanks for all of your help aceofmagic! So I'm just going to take what you said to the bare minimums. If I want I can go straight to the induction without a pretalk. However, it would help to create a vivid scenario or pretalk before the induction. Is that basically it? And thanks again!

aceofmagic

The vivid descriptions are the inductions
Pretalks are unnecessary instead just straight to the work
Practice practice practice
Suggestibility tests are pointless
There are many ways of creating trance skillfully but start with vividly describing those scenes I was talking about. Again that's how you PRACTICE. You can create vivid imagery on any topic at hand. It may be irrelevant to jump to a story about the ocean in the middle of a conversation about cars for instance. So the scenery is how you practice. Then try it out with people. Then learn to use that same vivid imagery and weave it into any conversation you have.

Those are the points I wanted to highlight.

aceofmagic

Additionally, the "step 1 step 2 step 3" approach to hypnosis falls flat on its face more often than not. This is because it is completely detached from what you're actually doing with a person. You don't need to do a pre-talk then induction. In fact you don't need the pretalk at all. Just skip it for now. "Wanna see something cool?" That's all. Even better, just USE the language. Don't describe the language like this "Well what is a sensory specific dream you once had. Make it as real as possible" Instead "As the dreamy waves of the fabric of reality itself began tearing at the seams, I was able to peek through a see a whole new world bursting with sparks of all colors and magnitudes." There's a visceral difference between the two. We're looking for an affect. We're looking for an impact. So we need to affect the body through our language. This is done by becoming vivid around what you're describing. The neat thing you'll find out, is as you're doing this, you'll need to go into trance yourself to see the vivid images you want to create for SOMEONE ELSE and THAT will enable them to watch you go into a light trance. The effect? It stands as a demonstration to them. They'll follow you because they're listening to the images and watching you slip into trance yourself. They'll be making those images in their minds full of color and gently slip into trance. Eye open? Eyes closed? It really doesn't matter. Hypnosis is NOT a zombie like state. First and foremost. So the goal of that will lead to problems and obstacles. Throw that to the side for now. Pull in that way of doing things where they simply get involved in what you're saying. You're looking for their attention. So making things vivid certainly does this. It'll create a strong body change in the listener if you do it right. If you're not getting the results you want, then practice more. Become even more vivid and do it again. FInd out what worked, then repeat. Find out what didn't work, and throw it away forever. I'm talking about the intricacies in your work.

This will certainly help.

Paul

Ok, thanks again.

Hypnosis_Please

Aceofmagic do you think you could hypnotize me via Skype. My Skype name is jacob_grima

idc130 · Post edited by idc130 at 2012-01-10 02:30:31

You could use his way OR you could use the lazy persons way(my way). No imagery or hypnotic language required.

1.You just do a pretalk to make it interesting, make it seem like its worth their time, make sure they're not afraid, and make sure they know that hypnosis isn't some magical state and that they will remain consciously aware(important or they will often snap out and tell you they weren't hypnotized).

2.Then you some suggestibility tests/set pieces/imagination games/waking hypnosis: I recommend a simpler one then arm lock to start off with so you can get them into it like the Elman eye lock or magnets. Make sure they don't think they're tests, because they aren't really. They are more for getting people in the mood and seeing what feedback they give you. But don't feel you have to go further if you're not getting anything from someone.

3.Finally do a quick induction(by this point they're thoroughly hypnotized so don't worry about which one you do) and there you have it.

From there I'll often give a super suggestion and start off with something simple like arm levitation to prove hypnosis worked. Perhaps make them stuck and forget their name. By this point you can go anywhere you want.

Most importantly have fun. Hypnosis is not about learning so much as doing. If you fail, recognize what you did wrong, and try again on someone else.

Although I have to say, my way is far more useful for making people do what you want and entertaining than for therapy.

Lastly if you're still reading this, I'd love to hypnotize you. My skype is isaac.cleland.
I only speak English and Latin fluently though if this is a problem.

Jeroen

@idc130 Do you honestly speak Latin fluently? I was lucky enough to be able to read it a little bit. Kudos for you!

Anyway, I'd love to see you hypnotize him, finally a way to compare my own hypnosis skills.

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